ICC and Germany

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Pete Milne]

[quote="Kiwipeter" post=50036]
I was hoping to do the German Lakes next year in a 17m barge (with ICC/CEVNI). Is there any possibility of getting a time limited 'Exemption' cert like the Rhine exemption?
[/quote]
The 'Rhine exemption' is for the boat, not the skipper, so I think the answer is no. The best bet seems to be to get a French certificate (perhaps with Tam & Di).

Marina posted a comprehensive article about the Rhine last year, which I reproduce below (and will add to the Knowledgebase)
--
Pete

Marina's post from April 2012:
THE BARGE
A vessel above 15m requires a one-time exemption if it neither has a Rhine-
nor a TRIW-cum-Rhine certification. Exemptions, which usually are based on
an onsite-inspection, can be obtained from the official Rhine authorities .
I am listing only those pertaining to the upper Rhein, between Basel and
below Strasbourg for those connecting between the Canal Rhone-au-Rhin and
Canal Marne-au-Rhin. Be aware that the German and Swiss exemptions can be
several hundred Euros. To date I have heard only about nominal French fees.
Obtaining exemptions can take several days as they require appointments for
inspections. (I am in touch with a recently retired Strasbourg based
inspector who still does one-off exemptions for a limited time, please write
offlist)

France:
Direction interrégionale de Strasbourg
Service de la navigation de Strasbourg
25 rue de la Nuée Bleue
BP 30367
67010 STRASBOURG Cedex
Tel : [phone]
Fax : [phone]

Germany:
Wasser- und Schifffahrtsamt Freiburg
Stefan-Meier-Str. 4-6
79104 Freiburg
Tel. [phone]
Fax [phone]
Internet: www.wsa-freiburg.wsv.de
Email: [hidden email]

Switzerland:
Rheinschiffahrtsdirektion
Hochbergerstr. 160
4057 Basel
[phone]


THE SKIPPER
Skippers of boats above 15m must comply with specific personal licensing.
The standard is a 'Rheinstreckenpatent' (Rhine has 3 or 4 area certifications), which is only recommended to obtain if you do the Rhine
rather often. It requires weeks of preparation. - For the channelled Rhine (Strasbourg to Basel) requirements are eased to permit holders of the older French PP or PPS to self-navigate, provided an extra medical is taken. The above authorities advise which hospital is licensed. For Switzerland it is (no appointment necessary, use emergeny desk and state specifically you need 'ein Rheinattest').

Universitätsspital Basel
Augenklinik - Poliklinik
Mittlere Strasse 91
4031 Basel
Tel. [phone]

The German equivalent to a PP or PPS for boats 15-25m is the 'Sportbootpatent'. ICCs are NOT equivalent.

PILOTS
The stretch takes 2 days. Paid pilots will costs around Euro 400. They can be asked through the above authorities, the locks prior to entering the Rhine ... Or better, ask around at harbors nearby. Many non-commercials, including other DBA members have appropriate licensing or know retired commercials living nearby.

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Peter Cawson]

that is correct. With a boat shorter than 15 m and an ICC you can sail

all german waters including this where you need for larger boats a
"Streckenpatent".

Thanks Jan - What I thought, but best to double check. I made a concious decision to limit the length of my present vessel to under 15 m for various reasons, including Rhine pilot exemption. I hadn't realised that the majic 15 m applied to ALL German waterways if the skipper has only an ICC/CVNI certificate.

Next year perhaps those with bigger boats may like to moor up and join me in my dinky little 15 m vessel on a "Wendish Lands" adventure, following the route of H M Doughty in 1890. Maybe we'd take advantage of the Mitteland canal, though!

Peter

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Graham Johnston]

My apologies for the Apple Typonese.....

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Tam Murrell]

It looks like cruising in Germany is off the plan at the moment....:(
I earned my ICC and CEVNI with Tam n Di a few years ago. Just for the record, my ICC only notes 'inland waters'. At the time I queried the lack of any notice of the CEVNI qualification to the RYA and was told it is wrapped inside the 'inland waters' notice. Seems that this may be too obtuse for non-Englisgh speakers and perhaps the DBA mshouldroah the RYA to amend the licence certificates to specify the CEVNE qualification..
Graham
EFFORT
@ Amiens

This seems to be becoming a common misconception among barge owners - there is NO qualification known as CEVNI, anywhere. There is no German CEVNI qualification, no French one, no Dutch one, no English one. CEVNI is simply the highway code, and in order to obtain any of the various European certificates or boating licences for inland waterways the boater must demonstrate knowledge of this highway code. You did NOT get an ICC and a CEVNI - you got an IWHC (Inland Waterways Helmsmans Certificate) which certified you were adequately capable of steering your boat. In order to get the ICC you had to show a working knowledge of the highway code as well - the CEVNI rules, which then entitled you to an ICC with inland endorsement.

This would not address the problem for boats over 15m in Germany.

Tam

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Peter Cawson]

There are many instances where countries allow visiting yachtsmen to travel in their waters with a lower level of licence than their own citizens, or even no licence at all.

In view of the fact that the "standard" qualification for UK residents is the ICC (with inland waterways endorsement if cruising inland), could it not be suggested that the German authorities accept ICC for visiting (as opposed to resident) skippers of vessels of up to 24 m - except of course on the major waterways where higher qualifications or a pilot is required?

It would be unfortunate if Germany becomes a "no-go" area for most UK boaters with big boats. The publicity of Peter's case in DBA articles and maybe the RYA and yachting / boating magazines, etc would not be welcomed by the German authorities. Apart from over 15 m barges, I presume the same rule applies to over 15 m sailing yachts and motor boats in coastal waters.

Peter

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Tam Murrell]

Post by DBA Forum (WCE) - Peter Cawson
In view of the fact that the "standard" qualification for UK residents is the ICC (with inland waterways endorsement if cruising inland), could it not be suggested that the German authorities accept ICC for visiting (as opposed to resident) skippers of vessels of up to 24 m - except of course on the major waterways where higher qualifications or a pilot is required?
It would be unfortunate if Germany becomes a "no-go" area for most UK boaters with big boats. The publicity of Peter's case in DBA articles and maybe the RYA and yachting / boating magazines, etc would not be welcomed by the German authorities. Apart from over 15 m barges, I presume the same rule applies to over 15 m sailing yachts and motor boats in coastal waters.

This misses the point that Germany, France, Belgium and the Netherlands all require their own nationals to have a licence on their inland waters, albeit with differing cut-off levels. Each of them also has licences at differing grade levels. Before the ICC came into being they had agreements (treaties) for acceptance of each other country's licences, and had arrived at mutually acceptable standards for each.

The ICC was supposed to do away with the requirement for these individual agreements. The ICC is NOT the standard licence for UK inland boaters, as the UK does not require any licence. At its fundamental level it is only a "visitor" licence for UK owners wishing to visit other countries. I argued for long for the RYA to abandon their earlier 24m limit on validity of the ICC in their role as issuing agency, as there is no such requirement within Resolution 40. It IS however up to each country to say what degree of acceptance they will apply, and as the RYA standards are pitched quite low it only finds a low level of acceptability with the German authorities. Germany, France and so on have little requirement to issue a specific ICC to their nationals, as their domestic licences are already a
t a higher level and it simply needed the wording on the cover to be modified to accommodate the ICC wording.

Yachtsmen have the possibility of the Coastal Skipper or Yachtmaster qualification, but there is no higher grade than the ICC for inland boaters. It is difficult to see why the RYA would introduce a higher level, as the number of people requiring it means there would be essentially nothing in it for them (and they are basically a business), but it is nevertheless a possible angle.

Tam

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Peter Cawson]

Tam - I hear what you say, but with due respect, you have rather missed the point of my posting. However you have inadvertently reinforced it by stating that the ICC is the HIGHEST qualification for inland waterways cruising that can be obtained through our licensing authority - the RYA.

My point is that, since the ICC is (as you have said) the ONLY qualification UK citizens can obtain in their own country, the German authorities could possibly be persuaded to accept the UK ICC for VISITORS only, so that holders of the highest possible UK-issued certificate can spend their holidays in their country.

I accept that the UK ICC is perhaps too easy a qualification to obtain and that Germany is right in insisting on a much higher standard (presently obtainable only by qualification outside the UK) for their major commercial waterways, but perhaps a concerted combined effort by RYA, DBA and others (as Mike Miller has suggested in another thread) could result in a satisfactory compromise - as several other countries do regarding visitors' sailing qualifications.

Another solution would be for the RYA to develop a more serious qualification for those who have larger vessels. For sailing there are a number of levels of RYA certificates - why not for inland waterways? The cost to the RYA would be minimal as you and your examining rivals would do the donkey work and would charge the customer. RYA would merely issue certificates that would be acceptable throughout the Resolution 40 area. For most taking the test, the pass rate should be high as they will have had tons of experience in 15+ m vessels. A brush-up on the theory side, first aid, etc and a pass should be expected, the German authorities would know that the skipper has the equivalent of their own citizens' qualifications and we can all enjoy the joys of the Mecklenburg Lakes and other Ger
man waterways, without the German police becoming a nuisance if they do their job with ultimate enthusiasm – as seems to be with the unfortunate Peter Nott!
.

Peter

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Charles Fitzhardinge]

I posted this reply into the former German Waterpolice thread, which has spored profusely. It probably fits best into the ICC thread so I have reposted it here.


`There are a few immutable rules in this life - these include:

Rule 1. If someone has been given absolute authority over you (eg policeman, immigration officer) be pleasant, and even humble, asking for guidance as to what you did wrong and how you can avoid falling into the same failing another time.
With due deference to Peter N, he may perhaps have been a little less than deferential in the first instance?

Rule 2. If making public statements be sure of your facts.
It is not only Germany which makes a distinction between qualifications required to drive a boat of 15m or less - France and Belgium also make a break at this length.

Rule 3. If everyone except you is out of step, maybe it is you who has the wrong foot forward.
Suggestions that the DBA should lobby the continental EU countries to allow lesser standards than that country requires of its own citizens are, to say the least, rather insular!

Rather than waste time, effort, and indeed credibility in this way, perhaps the DBA should lobby the UK MCA (Marine and Coastguard Authority) to add the DBA to the list of Approved bodies for issuing ICCs, at the same time lobbying to bring the ICC requirements applying to boats over 15m into conformity with the standards commonly acceptable to the continental European inland waterways authorities. "Resolution 40" lists The UK MCA Approved Issuing bodies as the RYA, the British Waterskiing and Waterboard Association, International Yachtmaster Training, and the British Sub Aqua Club. None of these seems at all relevant to operation of large vessels within the inland waterways of Continental Europe.
Such action, successfully pursued, would only enhance the standing of the DBA, be in the direct interests of its members and could bring the UK ICC into general repute rather than its present minimalist approach (and dare I say, matching reputation).

Tam and Di could be appointed our official examiners.

In 2007 we chose to take their course to obtain the PP precisely because we could not see the relevance of the ICC in training us to safely operate the large (as it seemed to us then) vessel we had just bought. As nationals of Australia (a continent with no remaining significant inland waterway traffic) the PP has stood us in good stead, and was instantly accepted by the German Water Police when, in 2010, we trespassed onto the Elbe, ignorant of the requirement for a pilot on a vessel over 15m on this waterway. Yes we were (very politely) fined for the transgression, furnished with a pilot (the local harbourmaster) and sent on our way. Our papers, ranging from Registration (Dutch Kadaster), insurances, and passports, to our PP qualifications were examined closely and none found wanting, al
l we lacked was the pilot.
Charles Fitzhardinge

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Harold Flescher]

I too got a PP with Tam and Di because I was unsure of what the future would bring, and because it was an extra pittance of money and a couple of extra days. I have met many people, many with big boats, who have an ICC from Tam and Di. For the life of me I never saw this logic. Today I'm a part owner of Decize, at 15 M, but do I regret spending the extra money for a PP which I don't need today? Not for a nanosecond.

H
Harold Flescher
9124 159th Court North
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33418
561-741-4804 (Land)
561-512-9644 (Cell)
I hope you enjoy the creative language changes Apple brings my iPad Mini:-)

Post by DBA Forum (WCE) - Charles Fitzhardinge
I posted this reply into the former German Waterpolice thread, which has spored profusely. It probably fits best into the ICC thread so I have reposted it here.
Rule 1. If someone has been given absolute authority over you (eg policeman, immigration officer) be pleasant, and even humble, asking for guidance as to what you did wrong and how you can avoid falling into the same failing another time.
With due deference to Peter N, he may perhaps have been a little less than deferential in the first instance?
Rule 2. If making public statements be sure of your facts.
It is not only Germany which makes a distinction between qualifications required to drive a boat of 15m or less - France and Belgium also make a break at this length.
Rule 3. If everyone except you is out of step, maybe it is you who has the wrong foot forward.
Suggestions that the DBA should lobby the continental EU countries to allow lesser standards than that country requires of its own citizens are, to say the least, rather insular!
Rather than waste time, effort, and indeed credibility in this way, perhaps the DBA should lobby the UK MCA (Marine and Coastguard Authority) to add the DBA to the list of Approved bodies for issuing ICCs, at the same time lobbying to bring the ICC requirements applying to boats over 15m into conformity with the standards commonly acceptable to the continental European inland waterways authorities. "Resolution 40" lists The UK MCA Approved Issuing bodies as the RYA, the British Waterskiing and Waterboard Association, International Yachtmaster Training, and the British Sub Aqua Club. None of these seems at all relevant to operation of large vessels within the inland waterways of Continental Europe.
Such action, successfully pursued, would only enhance the standing of the DBA, be in the direct interests of its members and could bring the UK ICC into general repute rather than its present minimalist approach (and dare I say, matching reputation).
Tam and Di could be appointed our official examiners.
In 2007 we chose to take their course to obtain the PP precisely because we could not see the relevance of the ICC in training us to safely operate the large (as it seemed to us then) vessel we had just bought. As nationals of Australia (a continent with no remaining significant inland waterway traffic) the PP has stood us in good stead, and was instantly accepted by the German Water Police when, in 2010, we trespassed onto the Elbe, ignorant of the requirement for a pilot on a vessel over 15m on this waterway. Yes we were (very politely) fined for the transgression, furnished with a pilot (the local harbourmaster) and sent on our way. Our papers, ranging from Registration (Dutch Kadaster), insurances, and passports, to our PP qualifications were examined closely and none found wanting,

all we lacked was the pilot.

Post by DBA Forum (WCE) - Charles Fitzhardinge
Charles Fitzhardinge

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Tam Murrell]

The RYA website states for IWHC,
http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/inland/Pages/inlandwaterwaysco
urses.aspx 'Course content - Safety, helmsmanship, locks and tunnels,
collision avoidance, an introduction to engine maintenance.' and although it
was a long time ago, it seemed pretty comprehensive with engines and
practice throwing a bite and loop.

Unfortunately your link did not work Chris, but I looked under "courses" and found the following:

INLAND WATERWAYS HELMSMAN'S COURSE
• Cruising our network of inland waterways makes for a great holiday or way of life. Inland boats range from small cruisers to narrow boats and barges.
• This course is for anyone wanting to cruise the UK's inland waterways or Europe's extensive network of lakes, rivers and canals.It deals specifically with the requirements of the inland boater, whether they be a narrow boat owner or cruiser enthusiast.
• It assumes no prior knowledge and so is ideal for the first timer, yet the more seasoned boater will learn plenty of tricks of the trade and tips to make their boating safer and more enjoyable.
• It is a hands-on course with minimal theory, and is not only an opportunity to learn new skills but also a fun day out!
• Most courses take place over one day and can be taken either on a centre's boat or your own.
• Take a look at 'Things to do with your IWHC certificate' to see what benefits and opportunities are open to you once you've taken your course.

They emphasise the fun aspect of the "mostly one day" IWH courses as the main thrust. It is difficult to locate any specific syllabus, but the IWHC attendee is now supplied with a copy of the RYA Inland Waterways Handbook which obviously serves as such, and although it lists pre-start checks for the engine there is no mention of anything concerning maintenance, nor collision avoidance.

I'm sure that many DBA members do have several years previous boating experience, but there are also at least as many with very little indeed, frequently with wives who have had none at all though they are now expected to act as crew on a heavy craft.

However I am not sure that detailed criticism of the IWHC will take us forward with the German authorities; nor is there a snowball's chance in Hell of the RYA making it more stringent or the ICC more difficult to acquire.

Tam

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Peter Cawson]

Tam and Colin - You are adding to my confusion! My RYA certificate is headed "International Certificate for Operation of Pleasure Craft" in Coastal Waters and Inland Waters, with "Yes" beside each type: Power up to 10 m, Power 10 m and over, Sail, Personal Watercraft. No mention of "Inland Waterways Helmsman".

What have I got compared with your IWH certificate? I have assumed it's better than IWH, but maybe not. Is my certificate any better than the one Peter Nott presented to those nit-picking police in Germany, or would I get the same degree of hostility?

Thanks

Peter

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Colin Stone]

Chris,

I wasn't getting at your wording - just the oft repeated "UK ICC" nomenclature by several contributors thinking it is a stand alone piece of paper.

The RYA website syllabus is even briefer than that in the front of the IWHC booklet - no wonder the Germans wouldn't touch it with a barge pole!

Got my own back unintentionally on a non VHF cruiser. He was hammering up to get in the lock when I lifted the tirette. Only then when I looked aft to see if the gates were moving, was it apparent that he had been aiming to join me.

Went back to wheelhouse and help up portable VHF radio for him to see!

No radio, no comms, no luck!

Colin Stone
KEI

Sent via BlackBerry® Internet Service

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Colin Stone]

Peter,

How did you get the "International Certificate for Operation of Pleasure Craft"?

To get it from the RYA you have to submit a RYA boat handling/skippering certificate plus a CEVNI pass certificate.

For example, I got the RYA IWHC and CEVNI from Tam and Di and I sent them off to the RYA who then issued the ICOPC or ICC Inland.

According to the RYA website, you could have submitted one of several boat handling/skippering certificates plus a CEVNI to get the ICC Inland.

Don't go into Germany in over 15m craft with just an ICOPC!

Colin Stone
KEI
Sent via BlackBerry® Internet Service

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Peter Cawson]

Colin

In January an interesting thread was started entitled "Optimum Length" by a member trying to decide the ideal length he should build to. I answered simply "14.95 m x 4.7 m for cruising, perhaps longer if it's your year-round home."

This of course started a heated / considered discussion on the subject.

After reading the recent threads prompted by Peter Nott's unfortunate experiences in Germany, I'm more than ever of the opinion that my dimensions are good for anyone without special overseas-obtained qualifications. Since the RYA seems not to issue any certificate valid throughout Europe for inland waterways (why the hell don't they?), it seems that 15 m is a sensible limit for most of us.

My previous vessel was 20 m and I made a concious decision to limit my search for a replacement to under 15 m. At the time, I thought the only real problem was that the Rhine and a few other big rivers required a more advanced certificate - I hadn't realised that ALL Germany would be out-of-bounds to me in a boat over 15 m.

How glad I am to have done so! I will hopefully have no problems anywhere in Europe with my present sub 15 m vessel and it's quite big enough for my non-livaboard requirements. If I get my next boat built from scratch it will also be sub 15 m but will include a car carrying facility - the one feature that I really miss from my previous boat.

Yes, I had a Day Skipper certificate at the time of my barge handling course and took the CVNI test at the same time.

What is the difference between my International Certificate for Operation of Pleasure Craft and an Inland Waterways Helmsman Certificate, anyone?

Peter

[DBA Forum (WCE) - Tam Murrell]

Post by DBA Forum (WCE) - Peter Cawson
What is the difference between my International Certificate for Operation of Pleasure Craft and an Inland Waterways Helmsman Certificate, anyone?

The International Certificate for Operation of Pleasure Craft is the certificate most commonly known as the ICC. There is no ICC per se - it has to be endorsed for various possibilities: coastal and/or inland cruising, sail and/or motor vessels,and up to or over 10m.

The Inland Waters Helmsman's Certificate is something you can get after a one or two day course on some vessel on UK inland waterways. It serves as practical evidence of competence, and with the addition of a pass mark in a simple multi-choice test of the CEVNI rules it can be used to gain the relevant category of ICC. The vessel used for the IWHC will determine the category of ICC (Inland), so an 11m canal cruiser will entitle the applicant to steer a 40m automoteur. The "saving" is that it is up to the country you visit to impose any limits on their acceptance of an ICC that they feel appropriate.

As an alternative to the IWHC you can "prove" practical competence by holding a variety of sailing qualifications, though how these satisfy the requirement within Resolution 40 that the holder has shown he is familiar with locks etc rather eludes me.

Tam